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AI FOR SCIENCE · INTERVIEWS

Frankle: enterprise AI is stuck on how to measure it, not on how smart the model is

The Frontier with Brendan Foody (Mercor) · ~49:00 · Open on YouTube ↗
Guest
Jonathan FrankleChief AI Scientist, Databricks; co-founder of MosaicMLProfile, roles and records →
Company
Databricks
Source
The Frontier with Brendan Foody (Mercor) ↗Published · ~49:00
Core signal

Frankle says that since Claude Sonnet 3.5 models have been smart enough for many complex enterprise tasks; what is stuck is saying exactly what the task is and knowing whether it was done well. His conclusion is that the cost of building evaluations has to fall by orders of magnitude before enterprises can rely on agents.

What this adds

The record has neither Frankle nor Databricks. The episode gives the enterprise side in specifics: prototype on the strongest foundation model, then move through prompt optimisation to a custom-trained model; one customer annotating 12,000 examples and building more than 70 calibrated judges; and his view of public benchmarks.

Current boundary

None of the customers he cites are named and no data is shown; 'custom training can save 5x or more' and 'only a single-digit percent of enterprise tasks are automated' are his own judgments. The host's company earns from building evaluation data, and the two agree that evaluation is the bottleneck.

01

What they said

  1. Empiricism won: measure the behaviour, do not prove it

    ▶ 1:41

    He goes back to 2018, when the argument in deep learning was whether there would be a clean theory or whether the field would have to measure. His lottery-ticket paper's review scores were two 9s and a 5, the 5 for having 'no proof', and a faculty interviewer asked whether he would do anything 'principled', meaning theoretical and provable. He found that insulting because empirical work is principled too. He says the paper's findings 'didn't really stand the test of time'; what lasted was empiricism as a lens, which lets you ask big questions theory cannot answer. Today nobody writes a proof that a deep-learning model is good, which is why evaluation companies exist at all.

    “empiricism is principled.”Jonathan Frankle
  2. The bottleneck is saying what you want and knowing whether it was done

    ▶ 12:17

    He draws the line at Sonnet 3.5: after it, models are good enough much of the time for many complex enterprise and knowledge tasks. Sit even the smartest person at a desk and say 'do work' and that is an underspecified task, so the hard part is describing the task and knowing whether it was done, which is an evaluation problem. He says even a model ten times smarter than Mythos would fail if the task and the standard of good are not set. He adds that 'the world is fractal in complexity': finance is thousands of small tasks, each different in every company because of its history, and perhaps three people in the world understand any one of them; so a 'finance benchmark' or a 'biology benchmark' he finds absurd and disrespectful to the people who do the work.

  3. Prototype on the strongest model, train your own only once committed

    ▶ 13:39

    His analogy is software: write the prototype in Python and move to Rust only once it is worth it. Agents are the same: take a foundation model you like, write a little prompt, make one or two evaluation examples and see whether the task is possible at all; high cost does not matter at this stage. Once people like it and it will last, move up: automatic prompt optimisation such as GEPA run against your own evaluation set; then see whether a smaller model works; only last a custom-trained model, which he says can cut cost by 5x or more, and says Cursor and Harvey have both mentioned recently. Evaluation grows out of vibe checks: everyone has a few questions they ask every new model, and you start there and add cases from production incidents, the way Waymo issues a recall and adds it to its suite.

  4. Public benchmarks advance the science, not your business

    ▶ 24:07

    He says he has never met anyone who truly likes a public benchmark, yet one like ImageNet advanced the whole field. Their bias comes from what academia can build and what it thinks matters: toward coding, though software engineering is a small part of the economy (he says about 1%); reinforcement-learning environments lean to coding too, since 'a Docker container is enough to hold an environment' is a coding view, while many Databricks environments are tens of petabytes, and letting an agent change one and revert it at once without breaking production is a new systems problem. What academia lacks is scale: working on 16 H100s is not the same as training models inside a company. So Databricks mostly uses benchmarks annotated on its own data, and also publishes its own, such as OfficeQA, a parsing and reasoning benchmark built on US Treasury documents.

  5. Cost, permissions, security: the three things enterprises ask first

    ▶ 30:07

    He says enterprise customers now ask first about cost, then governance (what an agent should be able to access), then security, and jokes that the era of token maxing is over and the era of value maxing is here. Governance is hard because a person has permission to hundreds of documents they have never opened, and an agent will find them, in ways a human would not predict; he gave an agent access to Jira and a Google document and narrowly avoided a complicated situation because he had not thought about what the two together would expose. So he argues evaluation cannot only ask whether the task was done; it also has to ask about the process: what permissions were used, what was accessed, whether it should have been. He says no one has really figured out how to measure this.

02

What changed

  • Prior public record

    The site has no Databricks or Frankle entry; the talk of evaluations and benchmarks appears only through science environments such as Leash's Minos (2026-10-14).

    This interview adds

    Frankle gives the enterprise side of the same question: how to make evaluation cheap enough for agents to be used. His own conclusion is that the cost of building evaluations has to fall by orders of magnitude. He does not talk about science.

  • Prior public record

    The Periodic Labs episode on the same show (2026-10-01) records what data training needs and why many kinds of lab are required.

    This interview adds

    This episode is about evaluation: what makes a good benchmark, who writes it, and why customers will not hand their evaluation data to model companies (he says data is an enterprise's lifeblood and model companies are the ones who most need more of it).

03

Why it matters

Success has to be written down first, and no model writes it for you

His core judgment is that if the task and the standard of good are not set, a stronger model does not help. Read against a science-AI result, that becomes a question: who wrote down what counts as done before the result? A company reporting on its own benchmark and an outside lab repeating it to a standard written beforehand are different kinds of evidence. What he calls the real evaluation, someone at a customer actually using it and paying, has its science counterpart in a lab outside the company getting the same result.

Cheap measurement is what closes the real-to-sim gap

He says if every enterprise had reliable evaluations and shared them, model companies could close the real-to-sim gap quickly; because they do not, a large contractor workforce is needed to approximate the whole economy's distribution for frontier labs. The breakthrough he thinks is needed is cheaper evaluation development, so that for the three people who understand a task it is pleasant rather than extractive. Leash's Minos on this site is one science answer: measure the experiments in advance and let agents choose among them again and again. Both lower the cost of measurement; the difference is that Minos covers only the molecules it measured.

Reading an interview hosted by a company that sells evaluations

The host's company earns from building evaluation data, both agree evaluation is the bottleneck, and they talk about enterprises buying evaluations from that company. They agree that the market for evaluations will grow by orders of magnitude, so the page treats that as their view and not as a market forecast. Frankle's own company sells a data platform and has a similar interest: the more evaluation, the more reasons to use it.

04

Claims and boundaries

ClaimWhose voiceWhere it stands

Since Claude Sonnet 3.5 models are smart enough much of the time for many complex enterprise and knowledge tasks; the bottleneck is describing the task and judging whether it was done.

Guest's judgment

His judgment, with no data; he says the problem is 'not the model being smarter'.

One medically sensitive Databricks customer has annotated 12,000 examples and built more than 70 calibrated judges.

Company-reported

The customer is not named and no judge-agreement figure is given.

Once committed to a use case, a custom-trained model can cut cost by 5x or more; Cursor and Harvey have mentioned it recently.

Company-reported

His statement; no example's numbers are given and what Cursor and Harvey said was not checked.

A project his team has been trying since 2022 finally worked this year and has been game-changing for the team and product.

Company-reported

He does not say what the project is.

Models have automated a single-digit percent of enterprise tasks, probably the very low single digits.

Guest's judgment

His estimate with no denominator.

Software engineering is about 1% of the economy; reinforcement-learning environments and public benchmarks lean toward coding.

Industry context

'About 1%' is said in passing and was not checked.

Many Databricks environments are tens of petabytes, and letting an agent change one and revert at once without touching production is a new systems problem.

Company-reported

He does not say whether they have solved it.

Databricks released a new version of OfficeQA this week (Treasury documents, which he says go back to 1789), and OpenAI includes it as a benchmark in every new model release.

Company-reported

OfficeQA is an arXiv paper of March 2026 (about 89,000 pages of Treasury Bulletins), which a search confirmed; the 1789 reach and 'OpenAI lists it in every release' were not checked and no OpenAI release page was found.

Enterprise customers now ask first about cost, governance and security; compromises in agents' pip installs make enterprises shy away from startups' software.

Guest's judgment

His observation of his own customers, with no data.

Giving an agent access to Jira and a Google document narrowly avoided a complicated situation, because he had not thought about what the two together would expose.

Company-reported

An anecdote; he does not say what it was.

The cost per evaluation will fall by orders of magnitude and the market grow by orders more; in five years it will feel like using Claude Code to build an evaluation.

Target

A hope, with no measurable criterion.

How inspecting online traces and an offline evaluation set connect is something 'no one has figured out', and nobody has figured out how to measure an agent's process (permissions, access).

Not yet closed

His own statement; he does not say whether Databricks has an answer.

05

What to watch next

  1. Whether the cost of building an evaluation is brought down in a measured way.

    Would show up as A tool or study giving the expert hours to build an evaluation set and the agreement between judges and people, compared with doing it by hand.
  2. Whether an evaluation of an agent's process is published, such as which permissions it used, what it accessed and whether it should have.

    Would show up as A named benchmark or tool saying what it measures, who set the standard of 'reasonable', and its results on known cases.
  3. Whether a named company gives numbers for a 5x-or-more cost cut from a custom model, with a quality comparison.

    Would show up as A company publishing cost, model size and its score against the foundation model on its own evaluation set.
  4. Whether OfficeQA is in fact listed by a frontier lab in each model release.

    Would show up as The official notes of at least two different model releases listing an OfficeQA score.
Source and how it was read

Read 2026.10.26 The full timestamped transcript the author supplied (YouTube's machine captions; the audio was not heard); the publication date and description come from the Mercor channel's feed. This is on Mercor's own channel and the host, Brendan Foody, is Mercor's CEO; the two talk about enterprises buying evaluations from Mercor. Frankle says it was recorded during Databricks' annual summit ('this week'; the summit ran 15 to 18 June 2026), so several 'recent' remarks date from then and were not each checked. The episode has only an indirect bearing on science, so the page covers what he says about evaluations, benchmarks and agent permissions and what that means for judging science AI. Open the interview ↗