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Mishchenko: flat-band materials cannot be picked by a threshold, so his group sorts them into families with a neural network and clustering

MACSMIN 2024 (Mathematics and Computer Science for Materials Innovation), University of Liverpool · ~42:00 · Open on YouTube ↗
Guest
Artem MishchenkoUniversity of Manchester (his affiliation at the talk); Manchester's page says he has led building Google DeepMind's first materials lab since November 2025Profile, roles and records →
Company
University of Manchester
Source
MACSMIN 2024 (Mathematics and Computer Science for Materials Innovation), University of Liverpool ↗Published · ~42:00
Core signal

A flat-band material is one where the electron's energy hardly changes with its 'crystal momentum', and many high-temperature superconductors have one. His group uses a convolutional neural network to pick flat-band materials out of a database's band-structure images, then clusters them by structural or band-image similarity into families a person can check one by one.

What this adds

The record has one fact about him, that he leads building DeepMind's materials lab, and none of his own research; the talk gives the method he worked on before that and the limits he names himself: hand labels are biased, clusters from a three-dimensional database are too many for a person to read, and language models asked to describe clusters mostly produce gibberish.

Current boundary

No new flat-band material found by this pipeline is shown to be confirmed by an experiment or a more accurate calculation; 'flat' here means a band computed with density functional theory (DFT), not one that was measured.

01

What they said

  1. What a flat band is and why it is worth finding

    ▶ 13:56

    Besides energy, an electron in a crystal has a 'crystal momentum' that describes how the phase of its wave is arranged across the atoms. Normally energy changes with it; in a flat band the energy is the same whatever its value. That puts a great many electrons into a very narrow range of energy with nowhere else to go, so they must interact and form collective states, sometimes magnetic order, sometimes superconductivity. He says copper-based, iron-based and nickel-based superconductors 'I think all' have flat bands, and that twisted bilayer graphene at 1.05 degrees has its bands flattened and a superconductor at about 1 K, an example in pure carbon. He grants that 'flat band is necessary' is an experimental observation and that he knows of no deeper theory.

    “you want to have this flat band and then on top of that flat band the interactions will happen and that will drive some new physics.”Artem Mishchenko
  2. The old way uses thresholds and hand-written rules, with the person's taste built in

    ▶ 25:43

    Databases hold computed band structures for hundreds of thousands of materials, and the question is which are flat. One approach says a band varying by less than 50 millielectronvolts is flat, so 49 is flat and 51 is not, which he finds artificial; rules built on eigenvalue gradients need many details written in advance and are also biased. He wants a generic method that can extend to other systems.

  3. Step one: an image network picks flat bands, then structure of the sublattice clusters them

    ▶ 26:43

    They took 2DMatPedia, a freely downloadable database of two-dimensional materials, stripped the axes from the band-structure images, made them black and white, cut them into small tiles, and had a neural network judge each tile flat or not. He says a simple multilayer perceptron worked at first, a referee asked for something 'more advanced', so they switched to a convolutional network and retitled the paper 'deep learning', and it needed less training. The labels come from researchers, postdocs label better than PhD students, and the bias is still there. They then keep only the atoms that contribute most to the flat band, form a sublattice from them, compute similarity with a structure fingerprint (a vector of about 244 numbers), and cluster with HDBSCAN and plot with t-SNE; the result is about 50 clusters that a person spent weeks reading, with about two thirds of the materials in no cluster, which he says is fine because the aim is to find trends, not to classify everything.

  4. Step two: no structure, the band image itself as the fingerprint

    ▶ 33:11

    The second idea is to classify by electronic structure rather than crystal structure, but a band image has no ready-made fingerprint. A student proposed an autoencoder: compress the band image to a 64-number vector and rebuild it, training on the rebuild error; the vector is the fingerprint. He says it is a very simple convolutional network, like ResNet-18, not state of the art. Without being told anything about the materials, clustering puts small-gap semiconductors, narrow flat-band systems, intermetallics and selenides into their own clusters, and chemical likeness (the same column of the periodic table) shows up too. Changing one number in the vector slowly generates a series of band images where a gap closes and opens again; whether this can be turned around to find a material for a wanted band, he does not know, 'probably not'.

  5. Scaling to three dimensions: too many clusters for a person, and language models do not help yet

    ▶ 37:47

    The same pipeline run on about 120,000 three-dimensional materials in the Materials Project gives a picture 'no human researcher can analyse', where in two dimensions they could go point by point. They tried fine-tuned language models or small ones to describe each cluster, but most of the time it is gibberish, which he puts down to a lack of logic and reasoning and expects to improve within a year. The other route is to cut the data: many flat bands are 'trivial', the atoms responsible lie so far apart that they barely overlap, so the band is flat and no interesting physics is expected. They are trying to measure this with how fast the electron density falls along paths between atoms (for example a minimum spanning tree), which leaves two or three thousand materials, but the criterion is not settled.

02

What changed

  • Prior public record

    The only record of Mishchenko on this site is the DeepMind materials-lab entry (2025-12-10), which says he has led building it since November 2025 from his Manchester page; none of his own research is there.

    This interview adds

    The talk (2024-09-13, when he still spoke for Manchester) shows his earlier research was using machine learning to find and classify flat-band materials among computed band structures. It is not directly tied to the DeepMind lab, which the talk does not mention.

  • Prior public record

    The site has no flat-band entry, and neither his 2023 npj paper nor the 2022 preprint is on it.

    This interview adds

    The talk adds what the abstracts leave out: the second step (an autoencoder giving band images a fingerprint), the run on a three-dimensional database (about 120,000 materials), and three limits he states himself: hand labels are biased, clusters are too many to read, and language models cannot describe them.

03

Why it matters

'Flat' is computed, not measured

He says the bands in these databases are mostly computed with DFT; the most basic level is cheap and can do hundreds of thousands of materials but is 'very bad' and leaves out realistic properties; adding spin-orbit coupling is a little better and costs about ten times more; and none of them include interactions between electrons, which are treated in a one-electron picture, sometimes with an effective interaction added. So the pipeline finds materials that are flat under that approximation, while the point of a flat band is the interactions between electrons, and that is what has to be checked next.

Classify by structure or by electronic structure

The first step's fingerprint is designed by researchers (about 244 parameters including symmetry), which he calls 'arbitrary design' but accepted; the second's is learned by a network from band images. The two can be checked against each other: he says materials close under the structure fingerprint are also close under the band fingerprint. A useful way to read this when learning the field is that the same materials have two similarity maps, one from how atoms are arranged and one from how electrons move, and where the two agree is more believable.

The bottleneck moved from finding to reading

With 50 clusters in two dimensions a person took weeks to read them and pick materials to make; with 120,000 three-dimensional materials a person cannot, and language models do not produce usable descriptions. The next step he names is cutting the data (removing trivial flat bands), not a bigger model. That is worth keeping apart: as the database grows, the cost of screening moves first to a person's reading.

04

Claims and boundaries

ClaimWhose voiceWhere it stands

A flat band puts many electrons in a very narrow energy range where they must interact and form collective states such as magnetic order or superconductivity.

Industry context

A general explanation from condensed-matter physics, not a result of this work.

Copper-, iron- and nickel-based superconductors 'I think all' have flat bands, and no one knows why they superconduct at high temperature.

Guest's judgment

He hedges with 'I think'; not checked.

Practical ambient-pressure superconductors work around 100 K, a mercury-based cuprate at about 140 K being the highest he knows of; high-temperature claims at megabar pressures have had several retractions.

Industry context

Said loosely ('I think'), and some figures he is unsure of (YBCO at about 80 K); not checked here.

Twisted bilayer graphene shows flat bands and about 1 K superconductivity at 1.05 degrees; theory predicted it and an experiment confirmed it about a decade later.

Industry context

A published result, given from memory; not checked here.

A very simple network can judge flat bands from band images, a convolutional network needs less training; label bias remains and postdocs label better than PhD students.

Current system

His own group's work with no accuracy figure given. The 2023 paper says about 25% of band segments in 2DMatPedia are flat against about 13% in the Materials Project (read in the paper). His account of a referee asking for a more advanced network and a retitle to 'deep learning' matches the preprint's title ('machine learning', a feedforward network) and the published one ('deep learning').

The 2D database falls into about 50 clusters with about two thirds of materials in none; the clusters form a kind of evolution tree with symmetry reducing step by step.

Current system

His spoken figures ('more than half, maybe two thirds'); the paper's numbers were not checked.

Keeping only the atoms that carry the flat band as a sublattice before clustering is reasonable, and a parallel three-dimensional paper did a similar separation.

Guest's judgment

He does not name the paper and says there might be exceptions, 'we don't know if it's true or not'.

The 64-number band fingerprint learned by the autoencoder clusters band images by chemistry without being told which material is which, and agrees with the structure-fingerprint classes in many places.

Current system

He shows pictures and gives no figure for the agreement; this step does not appear in the 2023 paper's abstract.

Changing one number in the fingerprint generates a series of band images where a gap closes and opens; whether this can be inverted to find a material he does not know, 'probably not'.

Not yet closed

What is generated is band images, and he does not say materials were generated.

On the three-dimensional database (about 120,000 materials) the same pipeline's output 'no human researcher can analyse'; language models describing clusters are 'most of the time gibberish' and should improve within a year as logic and reasoning improve.

Guest's judgment

The first half is his group's own observation, the second his forecast for language models, with a one-year window; see what to watch.

Keeping only 'non-trivial' flat bands cuts the three-dimensional candidates from 120,000 to two or three thousand.

Not yet closed

The criterion (electron-density falloff along paths between atoms, a minimum spanning tree) is still being tried and he calls it an open question; two or three thousand is his rough figure.

Whether any flat-band material found this way shows correlated-electron physics.

Not yet closed

No such result is shown and no particular material is named for measurement.

05

What to watch next

  1. Whether a flat-band material found by this pipeline shows interaction-driven physics in an experiment or a more accurate calculation.

    Would show up as A named material, with how it was found, and a measurement or a calculation beyond DFT's one-electron picture showing magnetic order, superconductivity or another correlated state.First evidence A June 2025 preprint (arXiv 2506.07518, abstract only) says candidates were found directly from structure and DFT validation of kagome-based systems confirmed flatness and topological character; still DFT, with no experiment or beyond-one-electron result.
  2. Whether the 'non-trivial' criterion is published, with how many remain and whether those removed really were trivial.

    Would show up as A paper stating the criterion, how it does on known trivial and non-trivial flat-band materials, and the numbers before and after in the three-dimensional database.
  3. Whether language-model descriptions of clusters reach a point a materials physicist can check.

    Would show up as A paper or tool showing a model's description of clusters, with someone checking the description against the materials in each cluster.Checked on Said: 'will be improved within a year'Still open The abstract of the June 2025 follow-up preprint does not mention language-model descriptions of clusters; this check was not an exhaustive search and found nobody showing it, his group or another.
  4. Whether the agreement between the structure-fingerprint and band-fingerprint clusters is quantified.

    Would show up as An agreement measure between the two clusterings (for instance the share of materials landing in matching clusters), compared with random grouping or hand-written rules.
↳

After the interview

Later evidence that tests or limits what was said, and targets whose date has passed.

  • A preprint by Wang, Wei, Bhattacharya, Yang and Mishchenko; the abstract says the method now learns directly from atomic structure without precomputed band structures and gives a 'flatness score', with DFT validation of kagome systems. It bears on his point that hand rules are biased and a more generic method is needed, but the validation is still DFT. Abstract only.arXiv 2506.07518 ↗

Source and how it was read

Read 2026.10.26 This is a conference talk, not a one-to-one interview. What was read is the timestamped full transcript the author supplied (YouTube's machine captions; the audio was not heard): the chair's name and the meeting's name are garbled at the start ('Max me' is MACSMIN) and 'flood BN' is flat band; audience members who ask questions are not named. The meeting's name, date and abstract come from the MACSMIN 2024 programme page (Friday 13 September, 10:00 to 10:50 UK time, the day read from the page's order). The paper he describes is the 2023 npj Computational Materials one, read in its abstract and in the passages on the clustering method and the share of flat bands, not in full; the 2022 and 2025 preprints were read in their abstracts only. The video's upload date was not read. Open the interview ↗MACSMIN 2024 programme and abstract ↗